Tim Alderson for Freddy Sanchez

Originally posted by LUser:
I've paraphased Joe Morgan before as saying "I like Major Leaguers".

Halladay is the most consistant pitcher to come along since Greg Maddux and has better stuff.

He rarely breaks down, is reliable start to start, completes games to save the pen, works at his craft and has never had a hint of mental, off field or chemistry issues.

To have two years of him mentoring the staff we have and the younger ones we want to groom with the tools of professionalism, consistancy, and work ethic is worth the price of Alderson/Villalona/Insert name.

If you can convince me Villalona at 18 is a combo of Jose Reyes/Hanley Ramirez, a perennial 10 year allstar, by watching him now then I may think twice. or Thrice. and maybe say no. But not if I'm Brian THIS year.

well think about it real quick
yea holladay has the insane track record
but does that all matter if we yhave him for 1 year?
or would u rather have guys like madbum and wheeler and timmy and cain..to have a really talented lineup to win games

villalona who can have an everyday impact
or holladay whos every 5 days for 1 year..

Originally posted by Poncho707:
well think about it real quick
yea holladay has the insane track record
but does that all matter if we yhave him for 1 year?
or would u rather have guys like madbum and wheeler and timmy and cain..to have a really talented lineup to win games

villalona who can have an everyday impact
or holladay whos every 5 days for 1 year..

It's Roy HALLADAY - not Holloday or however you misspelled it two times.

WOW we gave up a top prospect for number 2 hitter... we need RBIs.. we need a #4 hitter... crazy...

Originally posted by Poncho707:
well think about it real quick
yea holladay has the insane track record
but does that all matter if we yhave him for 1 year?
or would u rather have guys like madbum and wheeler and timmy and cain..to have a really talented lineup to win games

villalona who can have an everyday impact
or holladay whos every 5 days for 1 year..

You don't know how long we'll have him until we have him.

Are you saying if we got him. made the playoff two years in a row they'd just say Thanks Roy, See ya?

If we made the proposed deal today and got the wild card we'd roll out all three in the first playoff series.

I'd like our chances... even if we had to bring Doc back on short rest if the Unit/Zito combo couldn't go 5 innings in Game 4.

Sure it would be risky but Alderson is already gone, and are we that much better as opposed to having Halladay?

Playoffs are a lot about pitching and with our pen we'd have a good chance if we got on a roll.

Originally posted by LUser:
You don't know how long we'll have him until we have him.

Are you saying if we got him. made the playoff two years in a row they'd just say Thanks Roy, See ya?

If we made the proposed deal today and got the wild card we'd roll out all three in the first playoff series.

I'd like our chances... even if we had to bring Doc back on short rest if the Unit/Zito combo couldn't go 5 innings in Game 4.

Sure it would be risky but Alderson is already gone, and are we that much better as opposed to having Halladay?

Playoffs are a lot about pitching and with our pen we'd have a good chance if we got on a roll.

well i think it would be hard to get him under a good contract if we have zitos contract and his and then we need to be thinking of cain and lincys contracts

and lets say this series is a playoff series
us and phillies

we shut them down with pitching. say lincy cain or doc is pitching. ok we shut them down but we have no runs either

wasnt today a good enough reason to make u believe we need to keep our good hitters no matter what?
shut out by the PIRATES today until the 10th?

we coulda had nolan ryan out there today and he wouldnt of got the win

if our bullpen dudes gave up 1 or 2 runs we would lose

SO, because I was interested (and because I enjoy numbers), I crunched the numbers on what the two trades we just made will actually give us.

I compared Uribe to Sanchez (presumed incumbent to replacement at 2nd) and Ishikawa to Garko (incumbent to replacement at 1st). Since both Uribe and Ishikawa have fewer at bats than their replacements, I extrapolated their numbers to what they would be if they had the same number of at bats as their replacements (assuming a proportional increase for each). Then I calculated the differential between what an extrapolated Ishikawa and Uribe would give us compared to Sanchez and Garko.

Well, here are the results:



As you can see, the gains we make by replacing the incumbents with the two new players are EXTREMELY MINIMAL. Also, note that most of the gains in the main categories (HR, RBI) are contributed by Garko, not Sanchez. Sanchez offers almost no meaningful statistical difference compared to an extrapolated Juan Uribe.

Now, the question is, would you rather have these modest increases, or potentially package the two players we gave away to pull in a better player? Consider that a package of Alderson/Barnes/Villalona or other players could have potentially pulled us Halladay or Cliff Lee (or Matt Holliday, etc). Both of these players offer extraordinary upgrades over who they would be bumping from the rotation (Sadowski).

Now, I know there are flaws in this...but just as a quick comparison, I think it really shows how crappy these trades were...

Originally posted by Poncho707:
well i think it would be hard to get him under a good contract if we have zitos contract and his and then we need to be thinking of cain and lincys contracts

and lets say this series is a playoff series
us and phillies

we shut them down with pitching. say lincy cain or doc is pitching. ok we shut them down but we have no runs either

wasnt today a good enough reason to make u believe we need to keep our good hitters no matter what?
shut out by the PIRATES today until the 10th?

we coulda had nolan ryan out there today and he wouldnt of got the win

if our bullpen dudes gave up 1 or 2 runs we would lose

One game is one game and the Phillies aren't the Pirates, I know.

The fact remains Alderson is GONE. We aren't that much better for it.

You are still thinking like the team only thinks about the future and that Sabean can just putter around when he needs to prove his worth to the ownership now or be shown to the door.

If I were him and had been given access to both and the 3rd player wasn't an impediment to the deal, I do it as a no-brainer.

Now you honestly tell me if that deal got done today, who would be leading off sportscenter as the talk of the baseball world. Old warhorse Brian who did what the Phillies couldn't right before they came to town.

Doc would ave been scratched and started in place of Sadowski Friday night maybe against Cliff Lee.

On National TV... and SF would matter for the 1st time since 2002.

That's how you save your job.

Originally posted by CornsOnTheCob:
SO, because I was interested (and because I enjoy numbers), I crunched the numbers on what the two trades we just made will actually give us.

I compared Uribe to Sanchez (presumed incumbent to replacement at 2nd) and Ishikawa to Garko (incumbent to replacement at 1st). Since both Uribe and Ishikawa have fewer at bats than their replacements, I extrapolated their numbers to what they would be if they had the same number of at bats as their replacements (assuming a proportional increase for each). Then I calculated the differential between what an extrapolated Ishikawa and Uribe would give us compared to Sanchez and Garko.

Well, here are the results:



As you can see, the gains we make by replacing the incumbents with the two new players are EXTREMELY MINIMAL. Also, note that most of the gains in the main categories (HR, RBI) are contributed by Garko, not Sanchez. Sanchez offers almost no meaningful statistical difference compared to an extrapolated Juan Uribe.

Now, the question is, would you rather have these modest increases, or potentially package the two players we gave away to pull in a better player? Consider that a package of Alderson/Barnes/Villalona or other players could have potentially pulled us Halladay or Cliff Lee (or Matt Holliday, etc). Both of these players offer extraordinary upgrades over who they would be bumping from the rotation (Sadowski).

Now, I know there are flaws in this...but just as a quick comparison, I think it really shows how crappy these trades were...

I knew these trades were bad but these numbers just support what I already know. Good job.

Originally posted by Poncho707:
so u would trade the guy who ""the franchise is resting there hope on" for a pitcher for 1 1/2 years?

Without a doubt especially if you could replinsh what sabean has given away!...and have the top 3 starters in the game....no brainer!

Originally posted by LUser:
One game is one game and the Phillies aren't the Pirates, I know.

The fact remains Alderson is GONE. We aren't that much better for it.

You are still thinking like the team only thinks about the future and that Sabean can just putter around when he needs to prove his worth to the ownership now or be shown to the door.

If I were him and had been given access to both and the 3rd player wasn't an impediment to the deal, I do it as a no-brainer.

Now you honestly tell me if that deal got done today, who would be leading off sportscenter as the talk of the baseball world. Old warhorse Brian who did what the Phillies couldn't right before they came to town.

Doc would ave been scratched and started in place of Sadowski Friday night maybe against Cliff Lee.

On National TV... and SF would matter for the 1st time since 2002.

That's how you save your job.

so screw the future
lets package madbum posey and villalona for pujols

Originally posted by LUser:
One game is one game and the Phillies aren't the Pirates, I know.

The fact remains Alderson is GONE. We aren't that much better for it.

You are still thinking like the team only thinks about the future and that Sabean can just putter around when he needs to prove his worth to the ownership now or be shown to the door.

If I were him and had been given access to both and the 3rd player wasn't an impediment to the deal, I do it as a no-brainer.

Now you honestly tell me if that deal got done today, who would be leading off sportscenter as the talk of the baseball world. Old warhorse Brian who did what the Phillies couldn't right before they came to town.

Doc would ave been scratched and started in place of Sadowski Friday night maybe against Cliff Lee.

On National TV... and SF would matter for the 1st time since 2002.

That's how you save your job.

I dont care who the hell the Giants would play at 2b and 1b. If we had Linceum, Halladay, and Cain 1-2-3 we would have a chance to win any series. Isshy and Uribe are not that far off from Garko and Sanchez ( as Corn pointed out) and Ishy is a FAR better defender than Garko. Lets face it.. Sabean blew it by making these deals and as User points out not really going for Halladay.

Great post User and you are absolutely right.

Originally posted by Giantjohn:
Not the people who have a clue. Many times the best trades are the ones you dont make. Sabean panicked and gave in to a demand that I bet Pittsburgh did not even think that Sabean would do. LOL. What a ****ing idiot.

Anyone who thinks this is a good trade is as clueless as Sabean.

AMEN BROTHER!

Originally posted by Poncho707:
so screw the future
lets package madbum posey and villalona for pujols

OK. Id do that in heartbeat. You are talking the greatest hitter we have seen. However, the Cards would laugh at the offer.

Originally posted by Giantjohn:
This might be the funniest post of the year given who its coming from.

Lets see: Would I rather have Garko, Sanchez and Villalona or Doc Halliday. Wow.. let me think about that. Ummm.. no brainer. I'd take Halliday. Garko is fair at best, Sanchez is a 30 year old singles hitter with a bad knee. and Vilalona while a very good prospect is at LEAST 3 years away and having a so so year.

We would have controlled Halliday for another year and would have been able to move him for nice prospects next year if we needed to.

I would gladly have played Ishy at 1b and Velez/Uribe at 2b and have Halliday,Lincy, and Cain going 1-2-3.

I know one thing.. SD knows a lot more about baseball than you do so I would not be so quick to say that he has no clue.

Thank you for the compliment....at least i know there are other passionate G fans on this site that feel the way I do!!!!

Originally posted by Poncho707:
so screw the future
lets package madbum posey and villalona for pujols

Yes please! lol

Unfortunately the Cardinals would hang up the phone.